Downes' Green-Grocers, Colinton Village

I’ve always rather liked the traditional green-grocers shops selling fruit 'n vegetables which used to be so common on our high streets.

Like many small shops they’ve been decimated by large supermarkets.

There’s still one in Dingwall High Street.

Throughout the 1950s to the 1970s there was also one located at Oxgangs Broadway serving the community.

So, it’s rather wonderful that adjacent to Oxgangs at Colinton Village Patsy's wee shop is still going strong, since her grandfather (T.H. Downes) first opened the business in 1908.

Every few years I drop by convinced the shop will no longer exist, yet I’m always delighted to be proven wrong.

When we spent seven happy years living at West Mill between 1989 and 1996 we used to shop there.

Similar to Patsy's, these shops were always quite basic, with a distinct smell and feel to them and always painted with traditional green paint, usually fading, which all added to their appeal.

Entry for T.H. Downes from the Edinburgh & Leith Postal Directory from over a century ago

I don't think I'd linked the shop with the equally charming T.H. Downes' Nursery Garden and Greenhouses on the other side of the bridge, which we could see from our old West Mill Road kitchen window on the other side of the Water of Leith.

Today I looked in to buy some bananas for tomorrow’s Dundee Duel - note the old worldly till - a treasure - pre-decimalisation!

As ever Patsy was sitting on her stool, with the big old clock ticking, with a paperback to hand - a James Paterson - goodness knows how many books she’s read there over the decades.

I spoke to her and she was saying she’s going for a knee operation shortly, but although a little infirm she’s hardly changed in appearance since I first frequented the shop 30 years ago.

She told me she will be the last member of the family to run the business. 

'The White Lady' Anonymous Comment

'When I was around the age of 10 in the early 70s I used to go up to Bonaly, Oxgangs and the Pentlands Hills with my friend during the school holidays. One occasion we got such a scare that we didn't stop running until we reached home; we were both walking down a dirt footpath near an old rubber mill and for some reason we both turned around and witnessed a woman with a white dress hovering off the ground and you could see the grass underneath her feet. It spooked us and I have never run so fast in my life. On getting home I explained this to my mum who said, 'Oh that will be the White Lady'. As the days passed we just got on with our lives and tonight for some reason it popped into my head again so I did some checking on line and came across this Blog 

Colinton Mains Shops Development

The shells of the buildings which would become the shops at Colinton Mains (J. Dickson) 

David McLean (Lost Edinburgh) very kindly sent me this absolutely wonderful photograph from the early days when the Colinton Mains shops were being built. The photograph belongs to a Mr J Dickson. It's a real treasure of a find, capturing a fascinating moment in time featuring the early development of the area; the shops were a great resource for the residents at Colinton Mains, but also for those of us who lived at Oxgangs and Firhill too. My early memories of the shops and shopkeepers include Neils the Butchers; Andrettis Grocers; McNish's Post Office; and McCalls the Newsagents. 

It's quite remarkable some of the fantastic and important photies which occasionally appear, that no one knew even existed, but can now be enjoyed because of the blessing of social media, Facebook sites and people prepared to share such items. In days gone by, such items would have remained undiscovered within family albums-now they can be enjoyed by thousands of us.

Kim Cook (Penwill) Comment re: Lesley Orr on post "St John's Church-An Update":

I stumbled upon this blog after accessing Lost Edinburgh on Facebook. Imagine my extreme surprise when I noticed your comment on St John's Church, Lesley Orr, as I knew you many years ago when we lived in Oxgangs Street. My maiden name is Penwill, first name Kim and I have a very fond memory of attending one of your birthday parties! Our family moved to Australia in 1967 and I have been back to visit Oxgangs on a couple of occasions while on my travels. I hope life has treated you kindly. 

Cheers, 

Kim 

Oxgangs; Comiston; Dreghorn Walled Market Garden-Mystery Solved? Definitely!

When Ray first got in touch with me I suggested kicking off with an old Edinburgh & Leith Post Office Directory, but he didn't think his dad had a phone. Well, he did-thanks to David Shannon for tracking this down, which corroborates Douglas Blades' excellent detective work-'Sandy Nimmo-Market Gardener!'

ps As Douglas says: 'It's quite remarkable what can be found out! All good fun!'

Oxgangs; Comiston; Dreghorn Walled Market Garden-Mystery Solved? Douglas Blades

My good friend, the inimitable Douglas Blades, may well have solved the mystery of the site of the old walled garden which was posted last week. If anyone wishes a high quality attachment of the two poor quality map images which I've posted below, please let me know and I'll e mail them to you.

'I'm sure this was just along from the (Oxgangs) Broadway on land which I always thought belonged to Harwells (of Colinton Dairy etc. fame) and I also think it was abandoned before 1965. I remember the bungalow lying abandoned and derelict after the folk moved away and exploring it. Yes, there was a walled garden and small blocks of flats were built on it but I think the wall remains.  Mr McCall, a Boroughmuir English teacher lived in one of the flats either just before or after he retired. I also remember that potatoes still came up here and there is a field beside it. We passed near it on our way to play at The Gully which was nearer Buckstone than Oxgangs and quite near what used to be the Pentland Hills Hotel (I think!)

I'll have a look at old maps next week plus Google earth and see what I can find to jog my memory.'

Later

'Look at the old map (1932) first. Top right, Comiston. Below that, walled garden with a well marked towards bottom left hand corner.

Bottom left hand corner, larger square marked just outwith the walled garden is the cottage. Over to the left, Oxgangs, what is now the (Oxgangs )Avenue looks like it is just a path. 

Now over to Google earth satellite picture. From the old map, the only thing still with us today is the house below the word Comiston and its boundaries. You can see the two blocks of flats which were built within the walled garden and you can sort of follow the old road between it and the newer Pentand Primary School . The older house in its own grounds on what is now Camus Avenue also appears to still exist. The tree lines don’t seem to have changed much and Pentland Drive seems to follow the old field boundary. As we passed over it from the Oxgangs side the first field had been a potato field in its final days as cultivated land but the second field was fallow and just grass as far as I can remember.

Looking at Google street view it appears the old boundary wall has now gone. When the two blocks of flats were built it was still there but breached in places.

I reckon the cottage would have been at the end of what is now Pentland School Lane or at the end of the block of garages beside the lane.'

Douglas Blades

'The Top Secret 1971 Oxgangs/Boroughmuir Diaries of Retep Nnamffoh Aged 14 and a Hauf!"

If you're searching for 'The Top Secret 1971 Oxgangs/Boroughmuir Diaries of Retep Nnamffoh Aged 14 and a Hauf!" please note the posts will now be published daily throughout 2016 on a new separate sister site. I've now transferred the daily posts from 1 January,1971 to Saturday 6 February,1971 originally listed here to the new site. 

Although the 'Diaries' are closely interrelated to 'The Stair', because of the scale of this new project, I felt there was a danger of it overwhelming and cluttering up the original 'The Stair'' blog-site and making it difficult for viewers to navigate around the variety of material held here.

Please find the new link below-there is also another link on the right-hand side window too, under 'My Blog List.' Enjoy and please follow both sites!

http://oxgangsboroughmuirdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/

Mystery-Oxgangs; Comiston; Dreghorn?

I've attached some great photographs from a Ray Nimmo with the added bonus of a mystery/puzzle-trust it will generate much heat and even some light! It's from 1955/1956 and features Sandy, Amy Louisa & Carol Gay Nimmo harvesting in their Market Garden. Ray is not quite sure if it was in Oxgangs, Comiston, etc.-my initial thought is either Comiston or Dreghorn? 

Here's some extracts from Ray's e mail; '...help me to locate the site of the walled garden that I spent the first five years of my living beside in a small bungalow.  It was owned by my parents at the time who tried unsuccessfully to run it as a 'market garden' and was sold on for development about 1959 (but did not make my parents wealthy!!).  

Try as I might, I cannot pin its exact location down.  My wife and I have recently come full circle back to Edinburgh after a life of moving all over the UK and now live in retirement in Greenbank. I am trying to get a better grip on my family history and locating this old garden is part of that search.  I attach the only photos that I have of the garden and as you can see it was quite substantial so it must have been associated with a large house back in the day (which may be the one at the back of the photo but I cannot recall it from my childhood).  It was near Oxgangs Farm (I recall helping the farmer sow crops sitting on the back of his tractor's seed drill (strictly verboten now!!) and watching the cows being milked).  Also the Oxgangs shopping precinct was relatively nearby and in the process of being built. Any information or help that you might have would be much appreciated.'

100,000 Visitors

When I launched this social history blog, I don't think I ever considered hitting this milestone. #Oxgangs #100k

Braidburn Valley 1936

For anyone who missed this post yesterday by 'Lost Edinburgh' here's a re-post of David McLean's vignette and Mrs Elcock's charming photie:

'Braidburn Valley Park looking towards Pentland Hills, 1936. This view is looking in a southerly direction towards Oxgangs Farm - the council estate was still another 20 years away. Apart from the odd cottage or farmhouse, it was mostly green fields from here all the way to the foot of the Pentlands.When this photo was taken Braidburn Valley Park marked the edge of the city boundary. There are also tramcars running up and down Comiston Road!

Thank you to Mike Elcock, whose mother took this photo from her bedroom at 1 Greenbank Crescent.

From the City Hospital Looking Out to Oxgangs, Colinton Mains and the Pentlands 1948-1952

Reproduced with acknowledgement to Eileen Cameron, Derby, Derbyshire, England and her nurse friend from Switzerland

This fantastic photie was taken from the City Hospital grounds between 1948 and 1952 looking out onto the Oxgangs farmland in the foreground with a few prefabs and Colinton Mains in the middle distance to the right and the Pentlands in the far distance. 

It appears on Peter Stubbs' Edinburgh Photo site along with a few others sent in by a former nurse.

 It's really quite amazing what treasures are now appearing and being shared by people from the mists of time for others to enjoy thanks to the internet.

Getting Rougher In Oxgangs By The Week!

Baz N Suze Campbell

17 hrs · 

'Getting rougher in Oxgangs by the week'

This came across my timeline on Facebook! :-)

Life in Oxgangs in the 1950s and 1960s by Jim Blyth, now a resident of Ontario, Canada

I was originally alerted to this interesting post by Jim Blyth on the 'Like Warriors' Facebook page; I contacted Jim asking if I could re-post it on this blog for those who may have missed it. It's a super post, pre-dating most of the other blogs on this site, as it goes back to the very early days of Oxgangs.

' I grew up in the prefabs; we moved in around 1951 and lived in Oxgangs Place. The prefab was very cold in the winter the only heating was by a coal fire in the living room; the bedrooms and bathroom were freezing especially in the winter. Rain pouring down on the tin roof was a great sound as were birds hopping across the roof; when it thundered the whole house shook.Opposite our prefab was George Liddle's the joiner who was moved up to Oxgangs Bank just east of the shops in the early 1960's. 

To get down-town we took the number 4 bus; later came the number 27 and years later the number 16. We had to walk to the Braid Hills Hotel to the tram terminus to get to Brunstfield, Tolcross etc. 

Tram terminus at Braid Hills Hotel (Photographer unknown)

We used to play football in the park on Sunday afternoon with guys coming from all over, usually Hearts supporters against Hibs supporters. Gordon Marshall (Hearts) John Grant, Johnny McLeod (Hibs) all lived within 100 yards of each other on Colinton Mains Drive.

Photograph courtesy David McLean, Lost Edinburgh

There used to be farm behind Dr. Motley's and I would crawl through the hedge and steal turnips from the field. 

George Liddle the joiner installed the bell in Colinton Mains Church and I was the first person to ring the bell in the church. Beside the church on Oxgangs Road North the brick building used to be the local store with wooden floors; there was also a butcher at one end; it was later used as changing rooms for the footballers in the park.

Colinton Mains Parish Church

I worked in the dental building at the corner of Oxgangs Road North. and Oxgangs Farm Drive making false teeth; there was lots of business in Oxgangs at the time. I think the prefabs were knocked down in 1964 and we were moved to Oxgangs Crescent. I later moved to Canada in the late 1960's. I found this picture of a prefab online; its not our house.'

Photograph of 'the prefabs' at Oxgangs Avenue, courtesy Douglas Blades

Dr Motley-Comment From Caroline McKenna

Hi,

I lived at 52 Oxgangs Farm Drive, my mother still lives there today and has since my dad built the house in 1957. I have just returned from a visit there over Christmas. Dr. Motley made a big impression on my early life: he was statuesque, kind and dapper. His name for me was 'small fry' and he always said 'You are the bonniest of all the Mckennas'. His surgery, McAllister Cottage, was a pleasure to visit. It had skittles in red leather in the surgery and I never understood why they were there. We had little knowledge of race relations in Edinburgh at that time and Dr.Motley was the only black person I knew as a child and that felt like a gift. I think he had a bike in the early days. I have many happy memories of my Oxgangs childhood and would be good to hear from others. 

Caroline McKenna

A Date For Your Diary

Oxgangs Memories by Pat Rafferty

Hi Peter,

I saw your blog and read your book - I thoroughly enjoyed it!

I grew up in 22 Oxgangs Farm Drive and Anne Duffy (6/8) of ‘The Stair’ was my best friend at secondary school. 

Her mum helped me out when my father went a bit berserk with me - she had a kind heart. 

Like you, my brother also had a crush on Laura Duffy (6/8 Oxgangs Avenue)) as did a lot of other boys at school. 

Joyce Colbron, who you mention, lived below me and I have an old photograph of us on the old waste ground - we were the Raffertys and the others, the Colbrons. It was taken at Oxgangs Farm Drive where the self-build houses go round Oxgangs Farm Grove. If my memory is correct the house which was built where we were playing belonged to a lad called Ewen Macleod’s family, but the photograph was taken before they moved in. Going there today it looks as if these new houses have been there as long as ours - it’s hard to imagine it all formerly being wasteland.

My brother Mike trying to look invisible; my sister Cath behind him; also Sheila; Margaret; and Joyce Colbron. Ann my other sister is behind.

We were the Raffertys and there were seven of us in total.The photograph was taken where Ewen Macleod's house was going to be built on the waste ground at the end of where several bungalows were to be built all the way along to the woods entrance near the NAAFI slope possibly as self build houses. 

Oxgangs Farm Grove

We were friendly with the Colbrons for a short time and then who knows what happened, but for years the two families didn't speak and later we moved away from Oxgangs. I think our family was the first to move in to our stair and the Colbrons the last; and I don't have many good memories of that time.

Oxgangs Farm Drive

You also mention the Andreettis; what a sweet lady Mrs Andreetti was. Freddie, one of her sons, was in my brother’s class at St Marks and he was a nice kid. I used to have to go to their shop (at Colinton Mains) in the morning before school for groceries and if Mr Andreetti wasn't there Mrs Andreetti would sometimes give me a Milky Bar. We didn't get sweets often and this was a real treat for me; so much so, I used to save it, but had to hide it in my jumper where it always melted - I can't stand white chocolate now! It was a kindness I’ll never forget.

Colinton Mains Shops

I must have been very shy because I used to hate walking past the bus stop at the dentist’s on Oxgangs Road North, as there was always a big queue; so instead, when going for the groceries, I used to walk by the self-build houses at Oxgangs Farm Grove to the path at the side of the woods and go the back way through to the lane next to the Colinton Mains shops; it was actually very scary, but I was able to go back home along the main road and past the bus stop because it was maybe a bit quieter going back if the busses had been.

I was best friends with Anne Duffy (6/8) at secondary school; they were a very nice family and once when my dad was really berserk (I now know that he had a bad fall from a high height and damaged his back and my aunts have said his personality could transform from being pleasant to being the father from hell in one breath) - anyway one day I couldn't take anymore; I must have been about thirteen or fourteen and ran out of the house; however one of my slippers got caught in the door and I was too scared to go back for it. I shouted ‘I’m going to the police’ and I remember running past the dentist bus stop with only one slipper on and tears running down my face; however as I got to Dr.Motley’s surgery (situated next door to Mr Russell the dentist) I thought, They will just take me right back home - so I decided my next stop was to the Duffys (6/8 Oxgangs Avenue). 

When Annie (Mrs Duffy) saw me she was so kind. She went up to my parents and when she came back said it is all sorted and you’ll stay here tonight and no school tomorrow; and when you go back nothing will be said. I don’t know what she said to my dad but when I did go back nothing was said. Annie could be very strict and give a good tongue lashing - did my dad finally get a bit of that? And did it make him think? Who knows, but that was a very good thing which she did for me.

Mrs Annie Duffy and Mr Duffy

When I was older and we went dancing, I usually went back to the Duffys to stay the night and Mr Duffy was also a good man. I would hear him pop himself around the door just to check we were all home safely and then leave; I loved that, as we never grew up with caring from our parents and I always felt wanted when I stayed with the Duffys. The only downside was that I was expected to go to church with them on the Sunday - a small price to pay for feeling so secure. 

St Mark's Church, Oxgangs Avenue

I just thought I would give you a little insight into the folk I knew (The Duffys, 6/8) that you didn't know much about. I hope it was of interest.

Oops, I’ve just recalled that Laura wasn't a sister; she was in fact a cousin. Her mum died and I think her dad was in the forces or overseas and Annie and John brought her up with their own family - that was the kind of people they were, with big hearts.

Sadly, Anne and I only keep in touch with a Christmas card now. When we had our families because of school etc and at the time neither of us could drive and Anne had moved to Gilmerton and I was at Duddingston, so we never had any time; then we moved abroad and came back and just never really got back together. Yet I know if I bumped into her now it would be just like yesterday again, but I guess we all move on. I did speak to her sister Mary not too long ago and she said Anne still isn't on Facebook - such a shame. She married about a year or so after me and had three boys and a girl. I didn't go to the local school, St.Marks; the only one of us who did was my younger brother so I didn't meet the Duffys until secondary school.

Anne and I used to go ice skating as well as to the dancing together and were very close until our own families went on to school. We also went to Germany together-we must have been only sixteen, so it was a big adventure for us. She was also a bridesmaid at my wedding in 1975. 

I can't really remember much about John or James. I seem to think John got married and lived in Colinton Mains but I’m not 100% sure.I think James was the more mischievous one! Mary went on to become a nurse. Laura was different and always seemed aloof, but she really wasn’t and could be really funny. I remember listening to a Gary Glitter record and Laura belting it out at the top of her voice - I wonder if she remembers that! I do think all the boys fancied her; she too got married, I think to a postman and had children.

I noticed you became Friends on Facebook with John McDonaugh; he also lived in our Stair and I think he had a sister Marion. I remember my brother once playing in their front garden but no other memories of them. 

John McDonaugh (back row middle); Joyce Colbron (third left in row three) with the Author to her right; Ewen Macleod (second from the end of row three).

Unfortunately, Hunters Tryst Primary School brings back some horrid memories to me. Like you we had blue dinner tickets (free school dinners) and for some reason during the summer holidays we had to go to Hunters Tryst for our lunches; although there were quite a few folk in a similar position there, but at the time you felt you were the only individuals receiving free meals. Well, we didn't know anyone and kids being kids, we were made fun of, so of course we didn't go back again but had to pretend to our parents we did. The stigma of standing in a queue for a free meal ticket would never happen now so at least some things have changed for the better.

A boy who you mention who you had some run-ins with must have got around as he used to also wait on my brother coming out of St.Marks where the church is and threaten him for money. He never got any as we never ever had money - you would think he would have picked on someone who could have given him something. My brother would dread coming out of school in case he was waiting.

Funny we moved around 1970 to Marchmont, as our parents never liked Oxgangs as they grew up in the town so it was probably too much of a change for them. However I love going back there now. At the time I loved the openness of the area - the hills, the walks and the hours spent on the Pentland Hills or Hillend and the Braid Hills too. As a family we used to go to Spylaw Park, Colinton with a picnic - soggy tomato sandwiches and a bottle of water which we all shared but I loved it and as there was seven of us we could play rounders too - great fun!

I hope I haven't droned on too much!

Pat Rafferty

'A Moment in Time': A Small Montage of Photographs of Kids from The Stairs circa 1971

Yesterday, I came across these photographs of some of the kids from Stairs 2, 4 and 6 Oxgangs Avenue, circa 1971. :-)

Paul Forbes; Iain Hoffmann (6/2); Brian Hanlon (6/7); and Peter Hoffmann (6/2) at Woolworths, Princes Street

Stephen Westbrook (2/6) and 'Sparky'

The Scott sisters (4/8)-I clearly think their dog is a sheep invited in to save me cutting 'the lawn'!

Anne Hoffmann (6/2); Lynn Steer (2/5); and Gillian Westbrook (2/6)

Keith Robertson (4/2) on a fancier bike than we were accustomed to see (outwith Ali Douglas/Les and Derek Ramage; and Iain Hoffmann Raleigh Choppers)

Hunters Tryst Primary School (Edinburgh Evening News article)

The site of a former school that has lain derelict for eight years is back up for sale amid hopes that developers will snap it up for housing.

Hunter’s Tryst Primary School was closed in 2007 and previous attempts to sell the site were thwarted by the recession. The school was torched by fireraisers in 2008 and was demolished, leaving a brownfield site that has been an eyesore ever since.Now it has been put back up for sale by the council, with the 1.4 acre site marketed as being “well placed for easy access to both the city centre and Edinburgh bypass”.

City finance convener Alasdair Rankin said conditions were right to push for a new sale. Councillor Rankin said: “We always seek to gain best value for the council when selling any of our assets and as market conditions have improved, we have taken the decision that now is a good time to put this site back up for sale.”

The former school building became a magnet for vandalism and antisocial behaviour before finally being pulled down following the fire. Locals had branded the school a “death trap” and firefighters called for its demolition following the blaze. £20,000 was spent on reinforcing security around the site before council officials gave up on the building and the bulldozers were called in.

Pupils were moved from Oxgangs to Pentland Primary in Comiston, and developers Dundas Estates had lined up a planning application for new homes before the global downturn torpedoed the scheme.

Separate plans to build 104 affordable homes put forward by the Dunedin Canmore Housing Association, or to build a care home creating badly-needed local jobs, both also fell by the wayside.

Heather Levy, chairwoman of Firrhill Community Council said: “The community would be very pleased if the site is finally redeveloped. Our preference would be for social housing, because there is a strong need for social housing in the area.” Oxgangs councillor Jason Rust also welcomed the news that redevelopment of the site was back on the agenda. Cllr Rust said: “I welcome the fact that at last there is some action and the economy is such that it is now being marketed. While it is important for the public purse that the council ensures it obtains best value for the site, I hope that the views of residents are properly taken into account come any planning application. “The grounds having lain redundant for so long, we want to ensure what comes is appropriate to the amenity of the area. I will be monitoring this closely.”

One interesting comment: 'Given the amount of land that has been turned over to housing around there in the past why not make it a park?'

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/fresh-bid-to-sell-hunters-tryst-plot-1-3758974?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Vignette On Dr Motley By Artist Vicky Mount

When I was 12 to 17 I lived next door to Dr Motley in the Oxgangs area of Edinburgh. He was the first black American to study in the late 1920's in Scotland and then set up a GP practice in the late 1940's. I remember him as a lovely, kind and jovial man. I regularly took his wee Jack Russell a walk up the Pentlands. A vicious little devil. On returning Dr Motley would give me a handful of sweets. My Mum, a district nurse, whom he called 'Angel' occasionally helped bath his frail and elderly wife. 

When I was 15 I did this drawing from a photograph of him. Also, on my wedding day we went to visit him in hospital.  We turned up in full wedding gear and flowers for him. He couldn't come to the wedding so we took the wedding to him. He was very generous. He gave us £100 in an envelope before the wedding. I was so surprised. He died two months later aged 84.

I'd like to thank my Mum for setting a great example and for never saying, 'he's black but he's very nice' in the way I've often heard down the years.

Greenbank Cottage above Braidburn Valley in Late Summer and Mid-winter